Will carnivores be fixed in the next update?

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Drak1
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Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:15 pm

Will carnivores be fixed in the next update?

Post by Drak1 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:31 pm

I'm getting some cool simulation results already from setting the mutation rate to 1. Lots of speciation, simple niches, different groups competing for dominance. However, no matter how high I set the meat efficiency, carnivores just will not evolve. I've only had them evolve a single time, and they didn't last very long. This is the only thing that's preventing me from becoming totally immersed in this game.

Also, Quasar, you did a fantastic job with this game so far, been playing it since 2013.

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counting
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Re: Will carnivores be fixed in the next update?

Post by counting » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:54 am

Drak1 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:31 pm
I'm getting some cool simulation results already from setting the mutation rate to 1. Lots of speciation, simple niches, different groups competing for dominance. However, no matter how high I set the meat efficiency, carnivores just will not evolve. I've only had them evolve a single time, and they didn't last very long. This is the only thing that's preventing me from becoming totally immersed in this game.
There are still many ways to evolve carnivores even hunter carnivores in current patch (12.0.10)

I've done a lot of experiments on carni/herbi start with different parameters regarding how to keep the balance. The best I can tell is that high meat efficiency can only help so much. More over, very high meat efficiency might deter the balance in the long run. Following a creature especially carnivores close up, you can find that when meat efficiency reaching a certain point, a creature will always get full eating just one corpse, even just part of it. Any excessive corpses don't help them, but just make corpses plenty. The most common result is that, the ones do evolve to have high diet just become lazy scavengers, move slowly with low stamina. They don't need to hunt or kill, just wait for bodies to drop.

Also if you think about it, herbivores thrive with even very low grass or tree efficiency and they mostly survive well without any problem. A bunch of times I find the more efficient a food source is, only make easy living and eliminate the selection pressure. The extremely high meat efficiency when most creatures already fall into deep -1 diet has the worse effect, where just a slight increase in diet is enough, so mostly you would find diet -0.5 to -0.7 creatures. They can push toward omnivores easier if grass efficiency is also very low, but not carnivores. In my experience, a relative long stable balance will be when all food efficiencies are low. Like 0.3/0.4 level low. So creatures will be forced to seek different food choices. This is especially true if you start with carni/herbi, when they already established populations. Make life hard for creatures, not make them easy.

If evolving from the starting omnivores, I found that several different geological isolated regions are the key for ensuring diversity. Make sure each region has limited food source and low enough food eff, so they will constantly seek out new place to expand. And omnivores might have a good chance to migrate to a new region and forced to become more like meat eater or even hunters, if the existing species already occupying the herbivores ecological position. Another issue is about speciation. Since it often take some time for species to establish, and a healthy species need to have diversity to stay alive, so I found that it is usually better to set a relatively high breeding range like beyond 30. So the split species will cover much larger groups and won't fracture easily. Hunter species don't always need to be all diet 1, that would be very sensitive and too unstable. They will be more incline to stay if they have some diversities.

However, over time, the omnivore part of the species might get the better hand of things, and a lot of time I find that they start to exhibit some form of cycles, when a hunter species become too sucessful they might just over hunt the herbivores and the omnivores part of the speices will "devolve" back to more like herbivores. While if conditions are right herbivore species can evolve to be more like omnivores and eventually split some scavenger carnivores out. The problem is that they don't stay static, but always changing and keep the omnivore part of the hybrid subgroups diverse and vibrant. Sometimes even just increasing the mutation rate high enough to force variations.

Although I have not yet seem to be able to evolve truly high trophic level species (>4 carnivore of carnivore). Maybe the simulated creatures just aren't numinous enough to support them maybe. Or just not enough time for they to evolve. But from what I have observed, the current balance of level 2 and level 3 creatures are still too delicate to support complex food chain. The generalists are more favorite than specialist species.
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Master replied: “What questions?”
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Natural_20
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Re: Will carnivores be fixed in the next update?

Post by Natural_20 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:37 am

The herbivore population might just be too low for a stable predator population. That said, more behaviors and mechanics would help make creatures more adaptable, so depending on what Quasar implements, he might be able to make it work:

Stealth would allow predators to get closer without being spotted.

Pack hunting would allow predators to deliberately aid each other.

Loneliness and crowdedness would make it easier to find mates consistently and avoid overhunting a particular area.
Quasar wrote:Dammit, we forgot to sell the psycho drugs and now the chickens are ODing.

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