Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 3

Speculative evolution and forum games
naturegirl1999
Posts: 2222
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:15 am

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 2

Post by naturegirl1999 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:57 pm

Upgrade hemoglobin to allow us to store more oxygen so we need less surface trips

Upgrade myoglobin to produce/carry more heme for hemoglobin production

Lower metabolic rate so we require less oxygen

this paper compares oxygen consumption rates and diffusion rates of endodermis and ectoderms
Last edited by naturegirl1999 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm gonna put the last thing I copied here. Will change each time I visit for variety
Korobeiniki

User avatar
magmacube_tr
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:01 pm
Location: Somewhere where those pesky federals can't find me.

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 2

Post by magmacube_tr » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:04 pm

Get longer and slimmer to be more hydrodynamic.

Internalise the ears to be more hydrodynamic.

Stretch the tail to be longer.

edit: I edited my votes.
Last edited by magmacube_tr on Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Your everyday cube of molten rock. Also, look, a baby dragon.

░░▄▄▄░░▄▄██████▀
░▀▀██░███████▀▀
░▄█▀░███████▀
██▄▄███████████▄▄
▀█████████████▀

But thats a swa-

Shut up! This is the closest thing I could find.

Image

User avatar
BakedToast
Posts: 1230
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:31 pm
Location: Somewhere in Arrimua

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 2

Post by BakedToast » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:59 pm

Is it two votes a turn, or three?

1. Develop an escape/confusion method [against larger predators] involving a methane gas bladder to launch ourselves into the air or to be used as a blasting speed burst when jumping. I suppose this could also be used offensively while hunting, to "pounce" on enemies.

2. Further bolster and strengthen back leg muscles, so that our primary movement system is running in a bipedal fashion , or jumping about like kangaroos. (We still are on all four at rest, as our body can't support continuous bipedal-ism.

3. (If a third vote is allowed) Strengthen spine and back muscles to support longer term bipedal-ism.
"Greater than I, none. Less than I, none. For I am Chayrus. All shall be one, as I am."

naturegirl1999
Posts: 2222
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:15 am

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 2

Post by naturegirl1999 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:06 pm

BakedToast wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:59 pm
Is it two votes a turn, or three?

1. Develop an escape/confusion method [against larger predators] involving a methane gas bladder to launch ourselves into the air or to be used as a blasting speed burst when jumping. I suppose this could also be used offensively while hunting, to "pounce" on enemies.

2. Further bolster and strengthen back leg muscles, so that our primary movement system is running in a bipedal fashion , or jumping about like kangaroos. (We still are on all four at rest, as our body can't support continuous bipedal-ism.

3. (If a third vote is allowed) Strengthen spine and back muscles to support longer term bipedal-ism.
Prudentia wrote: every one gets three votes for this turn
3 for this turn because of fully forming ecosystems
I'm gonna put the last thing I copied here. Will change each time I visit for variety
Korobeiniki

User avatar
Alexcat989
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:35 am
Location: Now with Eldritch Paganism!™
Contact:

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 3

Post by Alexcat989 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:03 am

-Longer Tail to help with balance
-Digitigrade legs for more speed
-Move further into Carnivory, But cannot think of anything specifically so I need help.
SCREW YOU I AM THE ARCH-EMPOROR
Staff of the Official Discord
Image
Uses Cate/Cates pronouns
Image

naturegirl1999
Posts: 2222
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:15 am

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 3

Post by naturegirl1999 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:19 am

Alexcat989 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:03 am
-Longer Tail to help with balance
-Digitigrade legs for more speed
-Move further into Carnivory, But cannot think of anything specifically so I need help.
What kind of prey exist in your biome? Maybe sharper teeth to hopefully break through exoskeletons?
I'm gonna put the last thing I copied here. Will change each time I visit for variety
Korobeiniki

User avatar
Burger Cat
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 3

Post by Burger Cat » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:59 am

1. Continue to increase the size of the pair of nasal horns

2. Become larger "in terms of overall size" to better defends itself.

3.Developed a more efficient walking posture by increasing the bone strength in the legs to support a more heavier body for the future and to better help walking in search for food if the tunneling isn't working out.

"Basically slowly becoming something like a warthog now to keep a similar niche."
Image

User avatar
Alexcat989
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:35 am
Location: Now with Eldritch Paganism!™
Contact:

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 3

Post by Alexcat989 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:55 am

naturegirl1999 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:19 am
Alexcat989 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:03 am
-Longer Tail to help with balance
-Digitigrade legs for more speed
-Move further into Carnivory, But cannot think of anything specifically so I need help.
What kind of prey exist in your biome? Maybe sharper teeth to hopefully break through exoskeletons?
I already have super sharp incisors, and I was asking Prudentia for help.
I had a plan for a Cat like Taste system as they cannot taste sweetness, thus shifting heavily towards a meat only diet, but thought that was too convoluted.
SCREW YOU I AM THE ARCH-EMPOROR
Staff of the Official Discord
Image
Uses Cate/Cates pronouns
Image

User avatar
BakedToast
Posts: 1230
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:31 pm
Location: Somewhere in Arrimua

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 3

Post by BakedToast » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:16 pm

Alexcat989 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:55 am
I had a plan for a Cat like Taste system as they cannot taste sweetness, thus shifting heavily towards a meat only diet, but thought that was too convoluted.
So far, there aren't really any prey-like creatures in our biome, except bugs and ...
*gulp*... oh no...
"Greater than I, none. Less than I, none. For I am Chayrus. All shall be one, as I am."

User avatar
Prudentia
Posts: 3947
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:56 am

Re: Chordate Dominance: Remix- Turn 3

Post by Prudentia » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:58 pm

Alexcat989 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:55 am
Alexcat989 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:03 am
-Longer Tail to help with balance
-Digitigrade legs for more speed
-Move further into Carnivory, But cannot think of anything specifically so I need help.
I already have super sharp incisors, and I was asking Prudentia for help.
I had a plan for a Cat like Taste system as they cannot taste sweetness, thus shifting heavily towards a meat only diet, but thought that was too convoluted.

Right now? Mostly smaller creatures, like insects and small crustaceans. Between your currently existing physiology, you can easily make short work of their bodies. Well, larger crustaceans can prove difficult, but not impossible. Your best bet for moving further into carnivory are internal adaptations, like shortening your intestinal length (since Syrian are herbivore bordering on omnivore, and while diets exist on a spectrum, an arbitrary is the easiet, so lets say three votes to shorten your intestine to a typical carnivore length (over any amount of time)).

That said, I do wish to point out something, cats taste amino acids primarily. Their inability to taste sweetness is actually a disadvantage. Your do not have have to lose the ability to taste sweetness to taste amino acids. Meat can be sweet, or so I have heard. (Anecdotally) Supposedly, if you eat bear in the fall, when they are eating berries, their flesh takes a low key sweet taste, since their muscles are flooded with glucose and other sugars from the berries.

Here are some fairly plain speaking articles I found describing some of the common physiological adaptions that carnivorous mammals. The first is an analysis of the metabolic genes in carnivores, herbivores, and omnivores. It is a little heavy on the lingo, but some good ole intuition'll root the unknown in most of it.
The second one is actually an really interesting look into the physiological response to the carnivoran diet, and the repercussions of living the glut-famine cycle of a moderate or large sized carnivore.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5090899/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3847661/

naturegirl1999 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:57 pm
Grow some air sacs to allow us to store more air so we need less surface trips

Modify digestive system to be able to shuttle any oxygen from the eggs we eat to our lungs
So quick note on number one, this would affect your buoyancy, and in turn your diving ability. In my own opinion, a better, easier, route is improving on your myoglobin and/or hemoglobin. These two proteins are large part of why cetaceans, pinnipeds, and aquatic reptiles can hold their breath for so long.
Note on your third vote, you are primarily eating soft arthropod eggs. They lack an impermeable casing and pull their oxygen directly from the environment, and dispose of their cellular waste directly into the water as well.
magmacube_tr wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:04 pm
Develop echolocation by growing a melon organ at the forehead.

Develop the tail into a diagonal fluke.
Echolocation/sonar will take a bit to fully develop. Probably, looking into it more, trying to determine what parts you already have in place.
That said, what do you mean by diagonal fluke? You have a tiny tail, having a more seal like route than dolphin, which is fine. You don't really need a tail, as pinnipeds get by just fine without them. Yes, cetaceans move faster, but pinnipeds are more manuverable than they are. Just somthing to think about there.

BakedToast wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:59 pm
Is it two votes a turn, or three?

1. Develop an escape/confusion method [against larger predators] involving a methane gas bladder to launch ourselves into the air or to be used as a blasting speed burst when jumping. I suppose this could also be used offensively while hunting, to "pounce" on enemies.
Its three.
Alright time for the big one. So this took some math, and I wont say that it's impossible, but, I just ain't sure that it is at this moment
So, with methane being ~16 g/mol, a looked up the Joule output of one mol of Methane, its 810 KJ of energy (or 810 calories). So to find the work necessary to get your body off the ground.
Since I can't anything, even a video of a hamster jump, I took a Kangaroo. possibly a bad comparison given your current physiology, but I am sticking to it for the time being. Since a red Kangaroo has a standing vertical jump of six feet, or about 100% its height, that's what I applied to you. So about 9cm.
Under the assumption that a jump would last one second, I assumed a velocity of 18 cm a second. Since the KE= (mass*velocity^2)/2 I plugged in the numbers. I got 20-22.5 calories. Not bad right? Using 20/810, you need to be able to keep 0.027 moles in your body. Not bad weight wise, but what about volume? It is a gas, and there is just no physical way to keep it as anything else. Here the gas equation comes in.
PV=nRT
Pressure*Volume= moles of gas*Ideal gas constant*temperature in kelvins (273.15=0 C)

Your internal body temperature is 37 C
So I know everything except the volume you need. Now I have looked it up, so far I can find no example of when a biological maintains a pressure greater than one in its body. So using one atmosphere for pressure is a generous estimate. Since I took 9*8.4 (an estimate of your width, ~1/3 of your length)*26. That gave me an internal volume of roughly 1.9 L.

The gas equation gave me, 0.69 L
V=nRT/P
P (Pressure in atm) V (Volume in Liters) n (moles) R (Ideal gas constant) T (temperature in kelvins).
1 0.691259257 0.027160494 0.08206 310.15

Here's where I run into the problem. the 1.9L is your whole body. If we only count the body cavity, where this bladder would be, on a generous side, you're looking at 1.5 L. That's all filled with organs though. The body cavity is tightly packed in every animal, reduces the jostling and potential for internal.
Long story short, you need to be bigger, and probably to decrease the size of some organs to create room. In order to get a more manageable volume, I had to jack up the atmospheres (atm) to three. Currently trying to figure if its possible to maintain more than one atm inside an organism (even blood pressure in major arteries is only ~0.14 atmospheres), but is looks a lot easier to decrease pressure than it is to increase it, biologically.

Since land animals do not maintain sacks of air in their bodies (Not counting lungs because those are filled manually), a methane bladder would have to filled via blood stream of methane due the atmospheres low concentration of it (around 1.7*10-4 (or 0.00017% )). Since a fish needs about 5-12% of their volume to be their swim bladder, and given your intended use of it, I would be comfortable with it being 12-15% of your body (there is some room for negotiation on that upper value). (At 1 atm, it would 36% of your body volume, 2, 18%, 3, 12%, 4, 9%, 5, 7%, 6, 6%)


I love that you are thinking outside the box, I just wanted to provide you with a bit of a road map to getting what you want. If you want more help hashing your road map to this, feel free to pm me. This is a really cool idea, and the sort of physiological adaptation that completely defines an organism physiology, like the bombardiers beetles caustic ass spray. Always wanted to say that, now that I think about it.

EDIT
Just toyed around with the value for volume a bit, a few increase in efficiency, or an switch to an energy rich diet, and a ~25% or greater increase in size should have you all sized up to develop that bladder.
Black Rockfish, Sebastes melanops, ~12 inches, of the coast of Newport, Oregon.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests