Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

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Prokariot
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Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by Prokariot » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:22 pm

I haven't played the game myself, but I've watched several let's play videos on Youtube. And my conclusion is this game is still far from simulating the real life simulation. Yes, it looks promising with the myriad of traits that can pop up in your species. But the game still doesn't nail the concept of evolution quite right. I mean, from what I see, the evolved traits seems completely illogical. It serves no real functional purpose which is supposed to give the organism advantage in term of survivability. I know that it's still alpha. But there are things that really bug me, and I think will be hard to correct the further the development advances. To explain, I'll give you some of the examples.

First, the shape of the animals. Yes, it's hilarious to see dick-shaped animal now and then, but generally, the shape of the animals don't make any sense. In real life, the shape of the animals correlate highly with their habitat, mode of locomotion, feeding behavior, but in the game, there is none of it. You can end up with an animal that has two giant balls on top of two tiny legs. It's just silly. This creature is supposed to be dead before it even grows into an adult.

In nature, all animals will have a symmetry. Why? Because biological growth isn't random. Even Alan Turing, the father of computer science, was so fascinated by it, that he wrote a paper about it. In essence, he told us that even biological growth follows a pattern, a mathematical pattern, that can be descibed by a mathematical function. That's why you see those images of plants and shells following the golden ratio. This game has a potential to showcase that beauty, and it's missing it.

I suggest the devs to research into phylogenetics, if they don't already have. In phylogenetics, at the very root of animal kingdom, organisms are subdivided into bilateria and radiata. That shows how important the shape of animal in deciding its survival. Not surprising actually, since the shape of the animal will dictate its mode of locomotion, shape of the feeding organ, and ultimately, the habitat it can live on. All radiata animals are aquatic animals, for example. Simply because they don't grow legs. The reason why? I don't know. It's actually a good spot where the game can step into, show us that a terrestrial radiata animal with legs can also survive on land.

And now it brings up the the next issue. There is no simulation of marine life. I think all people in this forum would agree that life begins in ocean. First "fish with legs" stepped onto dry land to avoid being eaten by bigger fishes. See the pattern here? Legs, reasons. They did it to survive, and natural selection culled their fish ancestor that has no legs, and cannot fend bigger fishes. In the game, when you start with blank slate, the game will show you dick animals wriggling around their way at the grassland. So it essentially tells us that life begins with us being dick-shaped earthworms.

And next, the organs. So far, we're only talking about the shape, but ultimately, the more essential thing that animal must have to survive in their habitat is the correct functional organ. See how I highlighted the word functional, because organism can have non-functional organ, or still functional organ, but serves no real purpose on its survival. The organ will eventually disappear after many generations through process of sexual and natural selection. Especially if they're highly detrimental to the organism current mode of survival. Like for example, tails are lost from hominidae class because it's thought that it will just get in the way of our bipedal locomotion (for me though, it's more about how are we going to sleep. Can you imagine sleeping on your bed only to find your tail completely numb in the morning because you sleep on it). And with our heavier bodies, the tails are useless anyways. We no longer able to swing from one branch to another with our tail, instead hominidae develop a longer and stronger arms. The rate of losing the non-functional organ should be much lower if it's not detrimental for our survival. For example, we male humans still have nipples eventhough we don't breastfeed.

And going back to our fish ancestor, it should be obvious that they need to grow the necessary breathing apparatus to be able to survive on land. And also to reproduce on land they must develop a way to either hatch their egg inside the body (vivipar), or enclose it in a hard layer (ovipar). I hope these things will soon be addressed. Because reproduction organ and behavior are too important when talking about survival. One of the reasons that species like panda and rhinoceros are endangered, other than the usual loss of habitat, and poaching, is because their reproduction rate are really low. Simply said, they're not horny enough. And species like cheetah and tiger are getting closer and closer to extinction because of inbreeding causing a lot of genetic degeneration.

And ultimately, it will be great if we can evolve our own Felis Sapiens. Hail the cat emperor!

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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by 20 characters! » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:48 pm

The creatures in this game are symetrical, what are you talking about?

Since you're wondering about the dick shaped creatures they have a valve in the past, I'm assuming not because you're just making that up, but because you've actually read about the posts on them, that they tend to actually have an evolutionary advantage in this game, the little balls on top or actually extremely powerful claws capable of damaging anything that tries to eat them, because they never has to run into any obstacles, they tend not to have eyes, and again because they don't have to run into any obstacles, pretty much ever their heads can be right next to the ground this allows them to eat grass very efficiently, finally a long striding legs allowed them to cover long distances, again fairly easily.


Awesome, starfish are animals with the radial symmetry, and they basically have legs, the reason they haven't become terrestrial yet is obviously because they move by using pneumatics, that is water pressure inside of their arms , you can't really take that onto Lande.
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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by counting » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:27 am

To be honest, with our growth of computational power every year, the amount of simulation can be done in real time is still far from able to simulate actual physics in a game, it's not even possible with cloud computing to simulate a simple worm with all its thousands of cells in real time yet. Let alone thousands or millions of "creatures" several magnitude larger.

Computer simulation right now is all about compromise. Like we can not simulate complex image recognition algorithm for actual creature eyes and brains, thus are forced to use some type of sorting and radius based search algorithm to "represent" these functions. The same can be said with mobility, current Species game did simulation some part of the mobility issue and symmetry, even gravity effect of their limbs. When you pick a creature and enter creature mode, you'll see the axises and arrows that represents them in simulation. As of internal organs, that's probably the first thing need to be "simplified" when we are talking about simulated thousands of agents, where players can not actually see the inside. However a rudimentary biochemical system is indeed simulated "invisibly", even have plans for more complex one (it's just not that high on the developer's priority list).

Over all I am more concern with the speciation process been "unnatural" than the said physics level of simulation (where the boundary of species are "clear cut" without hybrid, and often causing weird species forming, and old species died out due to constant splits). As well as the pre-defined unnatural behavior using a static behavior trees somewhat independent from evolutionary process (the parameters are tuning, but not the structure itself).
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Bolachinha
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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by Bolachinha » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:32 pm

There were other symmetry patterns in nature: tri-radial. All species are long extinct.

About homminidae having stronger arms thats not true, in comparasion we other primates we have less arm strenght but way more leg strenght. Our legs are just really powerfull.

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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by Therminator » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:09 am

Instead of just saying "This is bad, this is bad, fix this, fix that" maybe you could also think about ways to actually fix it.
There's a suggestion box in the Feedback tab on the forum where you can help constructively instead of just complaining, which fixes nothing.

For example, it takes 5 seconds to come up with the idea that we should have marine life.
Yet, it takes hours to think of all the things that need to be implemented and much more to actually code and test it.
The dev is one guy. Instead of demanding changes, you could help make those changes by making detailed suggestions. Quasar is not as naive or biologically uninformed as you seem to think.

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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by MaximumJames » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:36 am

I would look at the game as having its own reality inpsired by real life experiences rather than a recreation of umm... real reality.
By not trying to make it like earth you can almost make it more realistic in a way by creating its own version of reality instead of creating an illusion of Earth's reality which is far too complex and nuanced to ever emulate on a PC desktop.

They may be more like "simple" jelly critters or even bacteria but if you are expressing genes and random mutations then the basic mechanic is there and it is physically represented instead of just being a bunch of stats as well. So I am actually dazzled by what this game can do rather than being disappointed by what it can't.

I play VR games almost exclusively these days and a typical first-person-shooter or some such game is not going to excite me enough to go back from VR, but this game does something not many other games have tried to do and none of them did it this way, so we have something unique here.

I have been playing No Man's Sky in VR (not the best example of a good VR game but that's another story). You really quickly notice how there are specific templates with rather meaningless variations, but they do look more Earth-like and dramatic with extreme differences between species.

On the other hand, I never saw a No Mans Sky fish drag its head across the ground with flippers and then came back later to see a modern version actually walking with newer better flipper legs as a result of trial and error! The feeling is hard to describe, but it's like finding a new little friend in a hidden world sort of, or like when you used to flip over rocks and ruin bugs lives for the sake of discovery when you were a kid.

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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by Guineapig004 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:08 am

MaximumJames wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:36 am
I would look at the game as having its own reality inpsired by real life experiences rather than a recreation of umm... real reality.
By not trying to make it like earth you can almost make it more realistic in a way by creating its own version of reality instead of creating an illusion of Earth's reality which is far too complex and nuanced to ever emulate on a PC desktop.

They may be more like "simple" jelly critters or even bacteria but if you are expressing genes and random mutations then the basic mechanic is there and it is physically represented instead of just being a bunch of stats as well. So I am actually dazzled by what this game can do rather than being disappointed by what it can't.

I play VR games almost exclusively these days and a typical first-person-shooter or some such game is not going to excite me enough to go back from VR, but this game does something not many other games have tried to do and none of them did it this way, so we have something unique here.

I have been playing No Man's Sky in VR (not the best example of a good VR game but that's another story). You really quickly notice how there are specific templates with rather meaningless variations, but they do look more Earth-like and dramatic with extreme differences between species.

On the other hand, I never saw a No Mans Sky fish drag its head across the ground with flippers and then came back later to see a modern version actually walking with newer better flipper legs as a result of trial and error! The feeling is hard to describe, but it's like finding a new little friend in a hidden world sort of, or like when you used to flip over rocks and ruin bugs lives for the sake of discovery when you were a kid.
First of all, this is a wonderful way to perceive the game! Second, I think you should know about our "No grave digging" rule. Basically, try not to post in a thread that is over a couple months old, as some of them take a while to figure out what you're even talking about. It's really based off of your own judgement on whether it's appropriate. Glad to have you here :) .
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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by MaximumJames » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:37 am

What a lame rule. You might have to ban me. I just write stuff because i am bored and lack the inclination to learn any new rules regarding these forum things.

I am trying really hard to learn not to be nasty and stay positive though. I read an old post I wrote about the oculus experience and was horrified at my own needlessly insulting language and meanness. If I talked like that in real life I would probably be a foot taller.

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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by magmacube_tr » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:11 am

MaximumJames wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:37 am
What a lame rule. You might have to ban me. I just write stuff because i am bored and lack the inclination to learn any new rules regarding these forum things.

I am trying really hard to learn not to be nasty and stay positive though. I read an old post I wrote about the oculus experience and was horrified at my own needlessly insulting language and meanness. If I talked like that in real life I would probably be a foot taller.
Why all recent topics are red at creationism vs evolution :?: Did you started a flame war :?:
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MaximumJames
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Re: Real live evolution simulator that doesn't simulate real life evolution.

Post by MaximumJames » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:01 am

I don't know what a flame war is besides a war, but philosophical debates and arguments over the correct way of perceiving reality are my favorite game to play. If you can persuade me to go creationist with a compelling concept or insight I will be delighted by the new perspective I can assume and also have an orgasm in my brain from my new perception of reality. Otherwise I just want to see what people got.

Basically I looked at the forums for this amazing new game and saw debates: religion vs science and went "Oh that's an even better game!"

To me Christianity was always boring and I started skipping Sunday school and endured several thrashings instead of being bored. One day I looked up at the blue clear sky and saw a Seagull fly by and I looked down at the cool grass swaying to a gentle breeze and then suddenly realizing "Hey! Wait a second! There's no such thing as god! AND THERE'S NO SANTA THEN!?" I remember as a kid asking really basic predictable questions like: "If heaven is not a place then why do we insist on imagining it as being in the sky?" Instead of a discussion on why we need heaven to exist in a certain way so badly, I instead had to make a paper machete lantern because of some story where the good people helped each other by sharing their lantern. I can't remember now, but it was a real taste of hell for a 6 year old.

Later when I read about the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the middle ages you could say to some extent that the history is almost a story of the church's growth and eventual domination of society. All through this history christians were arguing and murdering each other over the correct way to interpret the bible, its validity, and how to worship and serve god. That's when it gets cool. Iconodules and Iconoclasts was it? Holy trinity to avoid deification? That's the dope shit! Iconodules won the fight and today there's crosses and christian religious symbols everywhere, but a logical argument could be made for both sides.

I try to be as logical as possible, but I am not very good at it, so i am always looking for another perspective to compare my own too.
Whether or not I believe in a new concept isn't as important to me as whether that idea is a new one I haven't thought of before.
When I finally figured out why you can't divide by 0 (unless you want to be a weirdo) I basically had an orgasm in my brain and it was awesome.
(0 divided by 0 means you have something put into 0 groups of 0, so 0. "What's the problem", I always thought)

But I don't like having an argument if the other side is angry because then you're just fighting and I know I have to watch myself especially because I only write on forums when I'm bored at work at my new job or really stressed from being on call for a week straight at my old job, so I can be very moody and there's no point in venting to a bunch of speech bubbles that are supposed to be for sharing information.

PS I GOOGLED IT: No I did not intend to start a flame war over religious stuff, but I did try to start a flame war over teleportation vs traditional locomotion systems in VR (teleportation is for the handicapped) and whether standing VR systems are better than room scale VR (they are not). Some things are just too emotional and important to be polite and flexible about. BONUS: Only 20 minutes left on the clock and no one noticed me screwing around!)

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