To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debate

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bsb23
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by bsb23 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:35 am

TL;DR We all have faith, we all have science, what differs between us are personal experiences, these are what shape our "truths".

Sad to say I couldn't watch the youtube video, wrong country apparently. No big deal I'm sure it made some great points and was hilarious like every other arguable presentation ever given on religion. Let me turn this around for a sec here, you're right it is a big jump we have made that clear but it is an almost equal jump in the other direction. People don't realize the giant leap between I can't see Him working and He must not exist. Fact is we are all making assumptions based on evidence and like I said earlier there is no such thing as 100% sure of something.

I'm not here to debate our "evidence" though simply because there is no definitive answer. We could argue until we die like so many have, wasting their time and resources.The science on either side is in a stalemate. I just want to remind you what Christianity is. We are not all cult member, rapists priests, and boring nuns. This is not a Science vs. Religion debate nor is it a debate between Logic and Hope. This is just another Faith vs. Faith debate, you are whether you like it or not, putting your faith into or believing in something without sufficient evidence. We all are.

[Warning Personal Crap Follows, if you don't give a shit please move along]
If we are the same why am I on this side then? Well if we are ignoring science the only thing left is personal feelings, which change based on times and situations (much like how some people hold preferences for food that are non-genetic and non-chemical they have just had previous experiences and therefore make assumptions). My situation was that, long story short, I almost killed myself one day due to mostly loneliness, and the only people that helped me were the Church and I have prayed ever since and while I can't say that I have never felt lonely again, I have felt far better ever since.

P.S. mw3: you are right man life is dynamic but if you are swinging from happiness to those sentences white parrot pointed out I would encourage you to look to change something. I can't help you with specifics unless I know your situation but I would encourage you to try to change some things, because that is not how you should have to feel. Feel better ok?

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Sassy Cassie
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Sassy Cassie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:42 am

I hadn't planned on getting in this debate, but I am in the mood to be a small bit controversial(even a tiny bit). The Christian Bible says that god created humans with complete free will. All of the angels obviously have free will(or the devil wouldn't exist, as he was an angel who went evil), and I'm just guessing here, based on personal experience with animals and my faith, but I would say that all sentient beings created by god(meaning all animals, in my opinion... once again off of personal opinion) have free will. This would SUGGEST(not make definite) that while god has control over non-sentient things(gravity, physics, environmental condition, etc...), he has NO direct control over animals, people, and otherwise(like players in this game :!: Changing temperature, water level, etc... but not being able to force us to change). This would mean that all he can do is change the conditions around us and animals to make us more or less aggressive, intelligent, etc.. or better suited to the environment around us to make us see differences and cause conflict... but not directly change us. This idea leaves a lot of room for the idea of evolution... in my personal opinion... not deism, but no control over LIFE FORMS.
Ⓐ☭Empathy is the most radical of human emotions, and it's rejection is inherently reactionary☭Ⓐ

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Sassy Cassie
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Sassy Cassie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:44 am

AOE22 wrote:I hadn't planned on getting in this debate, but I am in the mood to be a small bit controversial(even a tiny bit). The Christian Bible says that god created humans with complete free will. All of the angels obviously have free will(or the devil wouldn't exist, as he was an angel who went evil), and I'm just guessing here, based on personal experience with animals and my faith, but I would say that all sentient beings created by god(meaning all animals, in my opinion... once again off of personal opinion) have free will. This would SUGGEST(not make definite) that while god has control over non-sentient things(gravity, physics, environmental condition, etc...), he has NO direct control over animals, people, and otherwise(like players in this game :!: Changing temperature, water level, etc... but not being able to force us to change). This would mean that all he can do is change the conditions around us and animals to make us more or less aggressive, intelligent, etc.. or better suited to the environment around us to make us see differences and cause conflict... but not directly change us. This idea leaves a lot of room for the idea of evolution... in my personal opinion... not deism, but no control over LIFE FORMS.
This, however, opens up a funny, yet sick and twisted other idea... Could we all be just part of some fun little simulation god himself is playing around with??? :twisted: :lol:
Ⓐ☭Empathy is the most radical of human emotions, and it's rejection is inherently reactionary☭Ⓐ

AnarchCassius
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by AnarchCassius » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:32 pm

That's actually an interesting point. We have yet to develop any real theory of consciousness. One could argue it's an illusion but that really makes no sense. All our knowledge of the world comes through our consciousness. If anything the world is illusion. Besides a universe of philosophical zombies would not behave the same as ours for the simple reason that they should never wonder about the observer in their heads. The paragraph I just wrote would never exist in such a universe. Consciousness is a thing, we just don't understand what.

I will debate your personal opinion to argue that oysters, lacking a nervous system, cannot be fully sentient despite being animals. ;) Indeed some plants probably posses a greater degree of sentience.

Of course if you define God that was it almost suggests that God is non-sentient. This seems fairly compatible with deistic pantheism.

Dampfnudel
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Dampfnudel » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:33 am

Creationism versu Evolution is a 100% American Debatte. Even the catholic church agrred to Evvolution long time ago.
As non-American can somebody please explain me how people still believe in creationism by a old men with white beard in a developed country of the 21 century?

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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by 20 characters! » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:41 pm

Dampfnudel wrote:Creationism versu Evolution is a 100% American Debatte. Even the catholic church agrred to Evvolution long time ago.
As non-American can somebody please explain me how people still believe in creationism by a old men with white beard in a developed country of the 21 century?
I think this might help explain that paradox for you.

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Riulus
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Riulus » Fri May 02, 2014 2:57 pm

Dampfnudel wrote:Creationism versus Evolution is a 100% American Debate. Even the Roman-Catholic Church agreed to Evolution long ago.
As a non-American, can somebody please explain me how people still believe in Young Earth Creationism by an old man with a white beard in a developed country of the 21st century?
You should probably consider the fact that the United States of America is also much younger than most 1st world countries by far. We've been around for, what, 3 centuries? Probably less? And England, Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, etc. Have been around for a good 1500+ years. Maybe longer. Culturally speaking, we're unstable. We don't know what we really want to be to the world, so we go around acting the part of "the superhero" (yes, I got that from Hetalia. Don't judge), hoping our "altruistic" actions don't come back to bite us in the ass.

Also, Colonial North America had a history of Protestant Christianity, which was basically the 1700s version of rebellious teenagers in our day. Almost anything that the Roman Catholic Church said, the colonists tended to dispute and fight over. That tradition has stayed with us for quite some time, and still influences our culture even now. We don't really want to believe whatever the Pope tells us to believe (or what anyone tells us for that matter), because many of us think he is a phony. What you're doing is assuming that all Christians just lump themselves together with the Roman Catholics just because they are a "Christian" denomination. Or at least, that's what it seems like to me.

Lastly, I have taken the liberty to correct your spelling and grammatical errors. You're welcome. (And people say that Americans are too lazy to actually care about their own spelling... Bah.)
Astronomy and simulating Planet collisions is so much fun...

Ozero
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Ozero » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:42 am

One thing about evolution is that you have stages. That is all. No transitions, just transitional stages. The scientific method is designed to rule out assumptions. Evolution is merely an assumption that has not been adamantly disproved. All the "evidence" is assumed to support it but you could use to support anti-evolution theories. I personally think that micro-evolution has been proved. Personally, I am shaky on Macro evolution. The alternative to evolution ( in the sense of creation, ie random or purposeful) is that something started life, and depending on theory, created all life as it is. That is possible, if we are made who says that we all have to made of different chemicals. If you were an all-powerful being, why would you do anything. You would have reasons to start with, but what if you always were. What if you were always an omnipotent and omniscent being, and just...was? There would be no rhyme or reason to anything. Such is the way of many gods and in particular the Judeo-Christian ( Maybe Islamic God too, i have a very bare bones understanding of Islam and the Quran). He created us and gave free will because he could.
Due to the nature of the "evidence" for all sides of the aisle, any position can only be supported by an individuals's faith in it's strength. Fossil dating is iffy to me due the fact of unknown half-lives, only estimates which may or may not be right, and how much of each element was there to begin ( If there is way to know then please enlighten me, as to my knowledge there is no way).

Ozero
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Ozero » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:16 am

Dampfnudel wrote:Creationism versu Evolution is a 100% American Debatte. Even the catholic church agrred to Evvolution long time ago.
As non-American can somebody please explain me how people still believe in creationism by a old men with white beard in a developed country of the 21 century?
@Dampfnudel, I wouldn't call this a strictly American debate dude. Many people just look for middle ground or don't care. America as the most religious wealthy nation, is trying to mantain a delicate balance between tradition and scientific advancement. Now contrary to other beliefs expressed earlier in the forum, most religions, especially Islam and Christianity have been instrumental in scientific advancement. The issue in America is that many Christians, I speak specifically in regards to Conservative Republican Christians, many of whom choose to take every thing literally and twist and extrapolate what isn't there into being. Not all of them do, but many do. Most Christians are more moderate and seek the Creationism/ Intelligence design be taught as a viable alternative to or in conjunction to the theory of Evolution. TOE (Theory of Evolution) is not a proven fact, and Creationism and Intelligent Design tend to be more origin related theories if you consider them in a scientific view and not a social platform. Both of which have just as much evidence as Big Bang Theory, which has more holes than TOE. I ask you, how can someone continue to believe in TOE when you could use TOE's evidence to support the belief that macro-evolution in BS. That is my understanding of how Americans do. Especially when many supporters of Evolution will quickly resort to mudslinging the momment a hole in TOE is mentioned, and supporters of Macro-evolution is BS do the same when it is pointed out that they can't disprove TOE. But do remember that just because you can't disprove it doesn't mean that it is fact. Just an accepted opinion. We tend to be more extremist in matters relating to religion and origins of us and species. A few of us tend to actually do our research and use common sense and not just accept a view because every one else has and accept a view just piss off and alienate others.

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Quasar
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Quasar » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:10 am

This should be interesting! Welcome to the forums, Ozero.
Fossil dating is iffy to me due the fact of unknown half-lives, only estimates which may or may not be right, and how much of each element was there to begin ( If there is way to know then please enlighten me, as to my knowledge there is no way).
Well, one reason radiometric dates are given such high confidence (seriously: "... the error margin in dates of rocks can be as low as less than two million years in two-and-a-half billion years.") is because there are a whole bunch of different types depending on which isotopes you use, and each type can be used to verify the others. So if you do a Uranium-lead test, you can then check it's accuracy with the Potassium-argon, Rubidium-strontium, Uranium-thorium and the *other* Uranium-lead method.

If one of them is wildly out compared to the others, that's good evidence that sample was contaminated. It's not just radiometric methods, either. You've got strata, tree rings, ice cores and so on, all of which can be used to verify the initial assumptions (and those assumptions are based on the quantity of isotopes in volcanic magma, so they're not just pulled out of nowhere).

As far as half lives go... well, we can measure them. The half life of U-238 is 4.47 billion years, U-235 is 704 million years, K-40 has a half life of 1.248×10^9 years, and so on.

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