To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debate

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Prudentia
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Prudentia » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:59 am

Neovenator wrote:Qu's got the age side of things, so I'll get cracking on the argument of 'it's just a theory', mainly because I'm feeling too lazy to go into biology. It's been a while since we've had a good debate. :)

It is indeed true that evolution is a theory, and that it's based on transitional stages. However, gravity is also a theory, not a fact, and we still don't know exactly how it works. Indeed, while we know the effects and mechanics of gravity, we don't know how it actually works (due to a lack of gravitons) and haven't actually observed a graviton. Evolution, on the other hand, has been observed There's many cases, such as the evolution of short-winged swallows that are adapted to sunbathe on roads, tuskless elephants to deter poachers and herbivory-evolving lizards on islands, to name a few. However, perhaps the best example is our very own SPECIES ALRE, which I'm sure you've tried. :P So, in scientific terms, the theory of evolution is actually more proved than the theory of gravity, which I don't believe garners quite as much scepticism. Science is open to having evolution disproved, but it's going to take about as much work as disproving gravity. Remember, Darwin spent decades gathering evidence for evolution, and we've had a good century (give or take, I'm a lazy person and won't check the date) to gather even more evidence.

If you've got any points you'd like to make in regards to biology, I'll happily debate them. Also, paragraphs. They're a thing, and I like them. :P
Just because the phenotype is different doesn't mean that anything has genetically changed. In the ninties i think an experiment was done on male mice were they were given an electrical shock whenever they smelled cherry blossoms. After verifying that there were no mutations in their sperm, the offspring from those sperm (all off the offspring from all of the mice) were not even conceived when their fathers underwent training. They ( the offspring) underwent no training and expressed fear to the smell of cherry blossoms, and were more sensitive to it. all of the offspring had enlarged glomerulus sections of the olfactory.
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Neovenator
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Neovenator » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:35 pm

@Thing related to species: A species isn't actually a... well, a thing. Unlike elements or particles and whatnot, a species is a category made entirely for our convenience. So's cladistics. Evolution is pretty much completely unrelated to cladistics, although cladistics is very much based upon how we believe animals to have evolved.

A lot of animals can recognise themselves in mirrors. (See this wikipedia article for more details.) If an animal can look at itself in a mirror, and recognise that it's looking at itself without ever having seen its own face, then this implies a sense of self.

The majority of junk DNA is probably from retrovirus. Retrovirus are virus, such as HIV, that actually splice themselves into the DNA of other living organisms and are passed on in the genetic code. Many of these things actually do something- for example, it's believed that a retrovirus infection was able to alter the immune response enough to permit the evolution of live birth, because the immune system would normally kill the exposed embryo.

Also, you may want to go over that post, I think you've done what a lot of people do in our History tests and forgot to actually get to and explain the point. :P

@Quote reply: What's them things called... Umm... Phenogenetics? Can't remember them right now, but there's certainly been evidence of non-genetic methods of inheritance. However, genetics (while important to our current understanding of evolution) is not actually a required component. As long as there is a method of inheritance (whatever caused the fear of cherry blossom in the juveniles) that provides a use (lowering stress by avoiding cherry blossom), it will be selected for according to evolution. We have proof that genetics exist, though (we've identified genes and identified that mutations exist), and that it can be inherited. Since we have a greater understanding of genetics than (remembered it!) epigenetics, it's logical and therefore scientific to assume that the method of evolution was genetic. But yes, it is entirely possible that the evolution shown was not due to genetics. This does not necessarily mean that this would not cause evolution. :P

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Prudentia
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Prudentia » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:12 pm

Epigenetics. Also, I think that the "junk" DNA in us, is of more use than we think. Yes, other animals can recognize themselves, but not in the same way. The human version of self, is much more complicated then an orangutan's sense of self. Yes they see themselves, but they don't make distinguishments between us, and them. In addition, only limited numbers of animals of any given species have passed. With what has been tested, it is not enough to actually establish self- recognition as a trait of certain species. With our current knowledge, self recognition is a species specific trait specific to man.
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by 20 characters! » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:56 pm

when I frst wake sometimes I have trouble with self recognition.
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Neovenator
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Neovenator » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:55 pm

Well, the evaluation of the psychology of other species isn't a subject that can be easily analysed, considering that we'd require first-hand experience, and that's sort of impossible. On the other hand, it's easier to assume that self-recognition gives a true sense of self than to assume otherwise, considering that the true sense of self actually seems to develop first in human children.

On the third hand (feet?), a sense of self is a feature that is entirely within the bounds of evolution, and therefore isn't really relevant to evolution debates. :P

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Prudentia
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Prudentia » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:11 pm

Also to go back to before with the discussion of militant atheism and being treated as a religion. It is really only militant atheists, but they treat TOE as a religion. Anyone every been to Portland? Oregon not Maine. Militant Atheism is ripe here. Especially in the school system, some teachers will even make fun of students who are religious, but they only really mock Christians. It is probably because anyone of minor religion status is very sue happy in Portland. In addition, the neo-hippies that live in Laurelhurst, holy crap. Never can any meet such, nasty and unpleasant, bike riding assholes. While they make up a small portion of the population, they are widely spread. So basically, you can only be on the east side, but about a mile east of the Willamette until you get up to Saint John's.
These people are extremely hostile to anyone religious and view religious folk as barbaric and primitive as well as stupid. Of course that being said, they know very little about anything. Whenever they want to insult me, the insults usually start with "The Crusades". Surprisingly, these morons are relatively non-violent. The worst of it is is that once you are in middle school, it is so ingrained in the school system unless you go to a charter or private school. If a Muslim wants to pray during class they can, if someone who identifies as a Christian tries to alone at lunch over their food, they are told to stop or given a referral. In my charter highschool, other kids had to hide in the science room to have a "Christian Club". No other teacher wanted to touch that, and when the resident atheists (only about maybe 10% of the school pop) found they were pissed and very derogatory to the others (40% of school pop). The demographics mentioned actually work well. About half of Portland and the Metro area is Christian, and probably about 20% cares enough t label themselves aethist, and about 1% of that 20% is militant, but they are all in the west side and first part of the east side. Most of Portland doesn't give a shit, but a very small portion of portland is militant, and maybe some of you heard about the entire Gresham Bakery debacle? if not, look it up and read about it. I don't know about you guys, but the outcome of that seems highly slated.
Black Rockfish, Sebastes melanops, ~12 inches, of the coast of Newport, Oregon.

Neovenator
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Neovenator » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:16 pm

...The demographics of militant atheism still aren't things related to evolution. If you want to discuss that and other such things, you should probably say so beforehand. :P

...

waaaaiiiiit.
Prudentia wrote:Also to go back to before with the discussion of militant atheism and being treated as a religion.
GOSHDANGIIT.

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Prudentia
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debat

Post by Prudentia » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:30 pm

Some one have a redirect? I dont'.
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MaximumJames
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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debate

Post by MaximumJames » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:47 am

If there's no evolution then what's my dick for? (that's just a dick joke that i am really proud of)

Being a militant atheist is the same thing as being a militant christian, in my opinion. I don't think whether god exists or not is as relevant as it feels based on what we need to do to live well and treat the rest of the world well. Or in other words, whether god exists or doesn't exist it doesn't really change what we need to do or whether we should treat people the way we would like to be treated.

Or in other words don't worry about it how religion explains reality and how it compares to scientific discoveries.I think God would want to be proud of the good deeds you've done in your life. God is not going to care if you were pro-creationist or not unless he's an asshole in which case f*** that guy anyway.

Also I just want to say, if you have a cat that loves to torture mice and it traumatizes them so badly that you are mouse-free until the cat dies, you will still have a few years before mice dare to return again. It's like they can leave their emotional anguish behind like an insect leaves pheromones. My new cat is a disgrace and fears mice and the mice actually know they can push it around and man! No genetic or ancestral link required.
Last edited by MaximumJames on Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: To fellow Christians struggling with the evolution debate

Post by MaximumJames » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:22 am

I just want to say as well that my cockatiel, or however you spell it (bird), from my childhood never figured out the reflection in the mirror was his own and I don't think he ever could have. ( i actually am feeling a little sick remembering the life he had).
He'd attack it and beg it to interact with him (oh god, why would you put a bird in a cage of all things. Actually i know why. It's to keep them from being free and either leaving or shitting everywhere).

He could not tell that he was himself a cockatiel and therefore never have a shot at figuring out the cockatiel he was looking at was himself I feel, but I feel strongly (faith) that he still knew he existed he just couldn't relate his sense of self to being a specific creature in a world with other creatures like him. He was just simply existed and the rest of the world was an external singular entity (in a way) that had to be dealt with. Do a shit load of acid without dying and you will know what i mean.

That bird made a big impression on me in terms of interfering with other people/creature's lives, even when you are sure you know what you are doing.

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