Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by 20 characters! » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:28 pm

I'm mainly using these definitions
Culture is the systems of knowledge shared by a relatively large group of people.
Culture is communication, communication is culture.
Culture in its broadest sense is cultivated behavior; that is the totality of a person's learned, accumulated experience which is socially transmitted, or more briefly, behavior through social learning.
A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.
That is, I consider culture to be inherited behaviour that happens to not be instinctual. You have different groups of orcas acting in different manners, using different dialects and different hunting strategies, these are passed on to their offspring isolated captive orcas do not display these, etc. The whole inclusion in your mind of "leisure activities quote for things not absolutely directly related to survival, I think is you just trying to make humans feel more special, since we've managed to somehow get to a point where we actually have leisure time. And I'm sure some of this behavior, is definitely you socially, we are talking about social animals after all.

It's like you didn't even read the definitions he was using before you responded.
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by Prudentia » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:59 pm

20 characters! wrote:I'm mainly using these definitions
Culture is the systems of knowledge shared by a relatively large group of people.
Culture is communication, communication is culture.
Culture in its broadest sense is cultivated behavior; that is the totality of a person's learned, accumulated experience which is socially transmitted, or more briefly, behavior through social learning.
A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.
That is, I consider culture to be inherited behaviour that happens to not be instinctual. You have different groups of orcas acting in different manners, using different dialects and different hunting strategies, these are passed on to their offspring isolated captive orcas do not display these, etc. The whole inclusion in your mind of "leisure activities quote for things not absolutely directly related to survival, I think is you just trying to make humans feel more special, since we've managed to somehow get to a point where we actually have leisure time. And I'm sure some of this behavior, is definitely you socially, we are talking about social animals after all.

It's like you didn't even read the definitions he was using before you responded.
I did read the definitions, but those are not definitions used by anthropology. Using those definitions is like using a biological definition of chemistry.

It is also like you just ignored all of my other points. The different "dialects" has been observed and studied in resident orcas (north and south). They have a range that they stay within, so the "dialects" could just be environment dependent. Not too mention, the fact that orcas are almost certainly more than one sub-species (if not species), so how much of that is sub-species specific and species specific behavior?

My point is that there are too many unknowns to say if orcas definitively have culture. We have more definitive evidence for Neanderthal culture, yet because we have so many unknowns, most authorities will only say that Neanderthals likely had culture. Nearly a third of the field still rejects that idea.

Wait... Wait a momment.
"You have different groups of orcas acting in different manners, using different dialects and different hunting strategies, these are passed on to their offspring isolated captive orcas do not display these, etc"
The offspring are not isolated from birth. If killer whales had culture, these individuals should have culture. The thing about social transmission, it makes integration into a foreign population easier. Keiko the Orca failed to reintergrate, you could argue due habituation or due to a failure of social transmission.

Also, hunting is actually completely instinctive. If it was, then why do we have to teach captive born predators how hunt?
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by 20 characters! » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:09 pm

I never said hunting was instinctual. >:( or if I did it sure it was a VTT error.
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by Prudentia » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:22 pm

20 characters! wrote:I never said hunting was instinctual. >:( or if I did it sure it was a VTT error.
Any argument to my statement that captive orcas should also display culture? If a species has culture, it is basically impossible for any individual then to not have culture. If they truly had dialects, then shouldn't captive orcas have a unique dialect? Culture should also be transmitted between groups, which none of the aforementioned are. If they were, then all northern residents would go to rubbing beaches, and dialects would be similar, especially since male resident mate with females from other pods. Why is there no cultural transmission there?

Is picking up an addiction from a parent cultural? Because that is the same circumstance that you insinuating that orcas have culture.
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by 20 characters! » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:32 pm

Prudentia wrote:
20 characters! wrote:I never said hunting was instinctual. >:( or if I did it sure it was a VTT error.
Any argument to my statement that captive orcas should also display culture? If a species has culture, it is basically impossible for any individual then to not have culture. If they truly had dialects, then shouldn't captive orcas have a unique dialect? Culture should also be transmitted between groups, which none of the aforementioned are. If they were, then all northern residents would go to rubbing beaches, and dialects would be similar, especially since male resident mate with females from other pods. Why is there no cultural transmission there?

Is picking up an addiction from a parent cultural? Because that is the same circumstance that you insinuating that orcas have culture.
Well no there haven't been enough time for captive orcas to develop unique dialects(there has only been one generation of captive born orcas as far as I know), I would assume(with the males) it's because the males don't raise the calves? Where did I say that any individual lacked culture?

As for cross cultural stuff, I'm not sure if they really have been studies as to whether behaviour from the males gets picked up or not, I Soum it would be somewhat difficult to keep track of everything that a migratory mail might do, amongst other difficulties.

As for addiction, my bet is eppigentics in all honesty.
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combi2 wrote:you can`t thats not how humans work
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by Prudentia » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:37 pm

20 characters! wrote:
Prudentia wrote:
20 characters! wrote:I never said hunting was instinctual. >:( or if I did it sure it was a VTT error.
Any argument to my statement that captive orcas should also display culture? If a species has culture, it is basically impossible for any individual then to not have culture. If they truly had dialects, then shouldn't captive orcas have a unique dialect? Culture should also be transmitted between groups, which none of the aforementioned are. If they were, then all northern residents would go to rubbing beaches, and dialects would be similar, especially since male resident mate with females from other pods. Why is there no cultural transmission there?

Is picking up an addiction from a parent cultural? Because that is the same circumstance that you insinuating that orcas have culture.
Well no there haven't been enough time for captive orcas to develop unique dialects(there has only been one generation of captive born orcas as far as I know), I would assume(with the males) it's because the males don't raise the calves? Where did I say that any individual lacked culture?
Culture develops and changes rapidly. One taken from captivity even at two years of age or younger should have had some trace of it, expanded upon it and passed it on.

Something I forgot to mention earlier, but the actual act of mating is just about the only completely instinctual behavior in many mammals. So still according to your definition almost all animals have culture, which means that Orcas still are not all that unique.
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by 20 characters! » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:04 pm

Prudentia wrote:
20 characters! wrote:
Prudentia wrote:
Any argument to my statement that captive orcas should also display culture? If a species has culture, it is basically impossible for any individual then to not have culture. If they truly had dialects, then shouldn't captive orcas have a unique dialect? Culture should also be transmitted between groups, which none of the aforementioned are. If they were, then all northern residents would go to rubbing beaches, and dialects would be similar, especially since male resident mate with females from other pods. Why is there no cultural transmission there?

Is picking up an addiction from a parent cultural? Because that is the same circumstance that you insinuating that orcas have culture.
Well no there haven't been enough time for captive orcas to develop unique dialects(there has only been one generation of captive born orcas as far as I know), I would assume(with the males) it's because the males don't raise the calves? Where did I say that any individual lacked culture?
Culture develops and changes rapidly. One taken from captivity even at two years of age or younger should have had some trace of it, expanded upon it and passed it on.

Something I forgot to mention earlier, but the actual act of mating is just about the only completely instinctual behavior in many mammals. So still according to your definition almost all animals have culture, which means that Orcas still are not all that unique.
I never said orcas were unique, my whole claim was that that orcas are more intelligent than octopi.
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combi2 wrote: ... thought that all cows could produce unlimited antibodies,boy am i a retard.
combi2 wrote:you can`t thats not how humans work
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by Prudentia » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:18 pm

20 characters! wrote:
Prudentia wrote:
20 characters! wrote:
Well no there haven't been enough time for captive orcas to develop unique dialects(there has only been one generation of captive born orcas as far as I know), I would assume(with the males) it's because the males don't raise the calves? Where did I say that any individual lacked culture?
Culture develops and changes rapidly. One taken from captivity even at two years of age or younger should have had some trace of it, expanded upon it and passed it on.

Something I forgot to mention earlier, but the actual act of mating is just about the only completely instinctual behavior in many mammals. So still according to your definition almost all animals have culture, which means that Orcas still are not all that unique.
I never said orcas were unique, my whole claim was that that orcas are more intelligent than octopi.
I never said that Octopuses were more intelligent, I said that they had greater problem solving abilities, but that orcas had almost human level emotional and social intelligence. Then you pointed out body plan and culture as relating to intelligence.

My entire claim was that orcas are not much smarter than any other animal, like other cetaceans their intelligence is overrated by the general public.
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by 20 characters! » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:38 pm

Whatever, I think they are smarter than most other animals at least in communication and problem solving skills, I may or may not be right but now I honestly don't see enough evidence for such a subjective thing and just don't want to argue anymore :/.

I haven't seen any evidence to show that say a dog is as smart as an orca, then again I'm not sure call proper comparison would be able to be made given the difference between terrestrial and aquatic habits, aside from opposing test at both of them could work at .
Last edited by 20 characters! on Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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combi2 wrote: ... thought that all cows could produce unlimited antibodies,boy am i a retard.
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Re: Help Desk- Any questions? Or game debates?

Post by Prudentia » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:40 pm

20 characters! wrote:Whatever, I think they are smarter than most other animals at least in communication and problem solving skills, I may or may not be right but now I honestly don't see enough evidence for such a subjective thing and just don't want to argue anymore :/.
Argue? Ohhhh, I thought that was a debate. Alrighty then.
Black Rockfish, Sebastes melanops, ~12 inches, of the coast of Newport, Oregon.

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