0.11.0 Development Thread

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Natural_20
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by Natural_20 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:19 pm

When creatures decide whether to pursue a food item, do they do so according to the food's base value or its adjusted value after things like population control adjustments? I'm just wondering how much information they have.

Observations:
-The way they weigh the safety of pursuing a food source seems... off. Lots of freezing to death and suffocation from seeking food in unsafe places.

-Tails seem to provide very little value; they always seem to breed out if added. This is true even for aquatic creatures with fish tails; it's more efficient to use flippers.

-Land creatures are commonly bipeds with legs attached at the chest. They take the T. Rex model to a whole new level by using the stomach and hip sections as counterweights for the head. This is amusing, but I suspect there's a game balance issue that makes lizard-like body plans too costly or lifting the body off the ground too cheap.

-The biggest issue with creatures moving between water and land seems to be the temperature difference. I'm going to test lower temperature sensitivity.
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White parrot
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by White parrot » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:46 pm

Natural_20 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:19 pm
-The way they weigh the safety of pursuing a food source seems... off. Lots of freezing to death and suffocation from seeking food in unsafe places.
I think the exact problem is further, because my creatures seem to systematically evolve away from climate sensitivity: tanking freezing/burning and healing off later (with the occasional dying from such a risky lifestyle) seems to be more incentivized than just staying safe. It must be said that with no predators, health is indeed only useful as a buffer against climate...
Perhaps it's an adaptation against population explosions: it allows the fools to seek food where the sensible people doesn't dare tread, meaning they can more or less survive while climate sensitives drive their own territory barren. Admittedly, this is highly speculative.
Natural_20 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:19 pm
-Land creatures are commonly bipeds with legs attached at the chest. They take the T. Rex model to a whole new level by using the stomach and hip sections as counterweights for the head. This is amusing, but I suspect there's a game balance issue that makes lizard-like body plans too costly or lifting the body off the ground too cheap.
Haha, game balance. 8-)
The droop from the body could be underestimated?
Then again it does raise an interesting question: why is such a body plan absent in Nature (at least at the vertebrate scale)? It looks straightforwardly efficient...
... Birds are surprisingly close: their weird knees are placed in such a way as to support their body in the middle.
Perhaps we just don't have a pectoral girdle strong enough to stand on it, so evolution settled on making biped use their back limbs as legs as the path of least resistance?
Natural_20 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:19 pm
-The biggest issue with creatures moving between water and land seems to be the temperature difference. I'm going to test lower temperature sensitivity.
I personally can't evaluate its relative importance, but I can confirm temperature difference has a significant impact.
At this point, we shouldn't be surprised by anything nature does. She's like a meth addict whose drug-fueled rampages unfold in slow motion and span millions of years.
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smjjames
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by smjjames » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:12 pm

White parrot wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:46 pm
Natural_20 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:19 pm
-Land creatures are commonly bipeds with legs attached at the chest. They take the T. Rex model to a whole new level by using the stomach and hip sections as counterweights for the head. This is amusing, but I suspect there's a game balance issue that makes lizard-like body plans too costly or lifting the body off the ground too cheap.
Haha, game balance. 8-)
The droop from the body could be underestimated?
Then again it does raise an interesting question: why is such a body plan absent in Nature (at least at the vertebrate scale)? It looks straightforwardly efficient...
... Birds are surprisingly close: their weird knees are placed in such a way as to support their body in the middle.
Perhaps we just don't have a pectoral girdle strong enough to stand on it, so evolution settled on making biped use their back limbs as legs as the path of least resistance?
It coming down to biomechanical reasons is probably likely given that unlike real life, the species in the sim can evolve whatever limbs they like and can spontaneously evolve or regress a middle limb if that path happens to open up.

Once the sea to land transition works better, we can see how it goes from there rather than straight on land from the start.

Natural_20
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by Natural_20 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:40 pm

Further observations: Letting the sim run with temperature sensitivity set at 0.5 for a day did not result in any animals with lungs evolving gills. Population control is set to niches, so the nutritional benefit of aquatic plant life is much higher than its land-based equivalent. I suspect that the forced anaerobic phase between lungs and gills just isn't survivable for them anymore.

Curiously, all of my creatures have bodies that are extremely horizontally flattened, the same as when the experiment began. Between the shape and the stripes, they all look like they've been run over by a truck.
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smjjames
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by smjjames » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:24 pm

Natural_20 wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:40 pm
Further observations: Letting the sim run with temperature sensitivity set at 0.5 for a day did not result in any animals with lungs evolving gills. Population control is set to niches, so the nutritional benefit of aquatic plant life is much higher than its land-based equivalent. I suspect that the forced anaerobic phase between lungs and gills just isn't survivable for them anymore.
In a sim I tried last night, I had a group attempt to make it, but couldn't get past the anaerobic stage. They also can't seem to get past it even when I try to force it by lowering water levels to minimum. Clear indication that the way the breathing system is set up isn't working for the water-land transition even though evolution tries to make the transition.
Natural_20 wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:40 pm
Curiously, all of my creatures have bodies that are extremely horizontally flattened, the same as when the experiment began. Between the shape and the stripes, they all look like they've been run over by a truck.
Just the aquatic ones or all? When they swim, they tend to do so sideways, don't know if that has anything to do with it. I've seen vertical flattening as well (though not to the same extreme), so, it goes both ways. If I had to guess, they're going with the extreme horizontial flattening because their bodies are already horizontially flattened, so, it makes sense to just go further down the line, then later experiment with different body shapes (I've seen sea turtle or teardrop shapes and ones resembling plesiosaurs/pliosaurs) once they are able to swim better.

Also, to concur with your earlier post on tails, I've seen them briefly evolve tiny tails, but then lose them, never gone beyond that.

Natural_20
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by Natural_20 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:28 pm

smjjames wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:24 pm
Natural_20 wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:40 pm
Curiously, all of my creatures have bodies that are extremely horizontally flattened, the same as when the experiment began. Between the shape and the stripes, they all look like they've been run over by a truck.
Just the aquatic ones or all? When they swim, they tend to do so sideways, don't know if that has anything to do with it. I've seen vertical flattening as well (though not to the same extreme), so, it goes both ways. If I had to guess, they're going with the extreme horizontial flattening because their bodies are already horizontially flattened, so, it makes sense to just go further down the line, then later experiment with different body shapes (I've seen sea turtle or teardrop shapes and ones resembling plesiosaurs/pliosaurs) once they are able to swim better.
These are the land-dwellers that I was hoping would evolve gills. They evolved to be pancake-flat and air breathing. I think it might actually be more practical for them to just be air breathers that can dive for food now and then.
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smjjames
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by smjjames » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:37 pm

I wonder if seals didn't need to have skeletons to allow them to breathe, they'd go pancake flat? I checked wiki for water beetles and they're generally flattened horizontially, so, theres that for real life examples.

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Quasar
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by Quasar » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:14 pm

Natural_20 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:19 pm
-Tails seem to provide very little value; they always seem to breed out if added. This is true even for aquatic creatures with fish tails; it's more efficient to use flippers.
Well spotted. There's a bit of phenotype infrastructure missing for tails, so tails stats aren't being taken into account except for basic body physics.

Fixed (but not tested yet) in dev.

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Quasar
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by Quasar » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:26 am

smjjames wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:10 pm
Question on the niche 'H' HUD, what specifically does the 'provided:' number indicate? Amount available? Amount near the creatures? I'm just wondering what those numbers mean while I'm testing out the niche stuff.

Edit: I’m noticing that sometimes the provided number for meat goes negative, what does that mean? I haven’t noticed it with other niches, so, maybe it’s a bug.
Missed this one.

"Provided" is "Energy recently provided to creatures by this food source". It is added to whenever a creature eats that food and gradually reverts to 0 over time.

smjjames
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Re: 0.11.0 Development Thread

Post by smjjames » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:41 am

Quasar wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:26 am
smjjames wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:10 pm
Question on the niche 'H' HUD, what specifically does the 'provided:' number indicate? Amount available? Amount near the creatures? I'm just wondering what those numbers mean while I'm testing out the niche stuff.

Edit: I’m noticing that sometimes the provided number for meat goes negative, what does that mean? I haven’t noticed it with other niches, so, maybe it’s a bug.
Missed this one.

"Provided" is "Energy recently provided to creatures by this food source". It is added to whenever a creature eats that food and gradually reverts to 0 over time.
I see, that makes sense. What about the meat one going negative? Never noticed it with the others, only meat.

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